RRD: One problem with being a member of a minority is that you are often placed in the position of explaining that group X which takes stance Y does not speak for all the individuals who share some of group X's other beliefs. This is true of Jews,Catholics,Muslims & yes Atheists.
A group of atheists in Arkansas--the Arkansas Society of Freethinkers--apparently having little else to do with themselves (since of course,they could not spend their time more productively criticizing Isalmists) ,have taken a bold & courageous stance,against ..."A Charlie Brown Christmas" .
Atheists cry foul over 'A Charlie Brown Christmas' | The Daily Caller http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/21/atheists-cry-foul-over-a-charlie-brown-christmas
...."The trouble began when students at Terry Elementary
School brought home letters detailing the trip to see “A
Charlie Brown Christmas” [RRD:a live version of the movie in play form ] at a local church, according to a report from Arkansas’ KARK. A parent who had a problem with the play’s content notified the local atheist group of the field trip.
“We’re not saying anything bad about Charlie Brown,”
Anne Orsi, vice president of the ,told KARK. “The problem is that it’s got religious content and it’s being performed in a religious venue and that doesn’t just blur the line between church and state, it oversteps it entirely.”
....."While students can opt out, the parent whistle blower who
preferred to remain unnamed told KARK that she is letting
her child go because she does not want her child to be
bullied. "... RRD: State sponsored prayer "oversteps the line between Church & State". (fn1) Taking a Jewish child to a church to have him baptized without his parent's consent "oversteps the line between Church & State" (& actually happened once,I believe) . A Public School teacher screaming at a Jewish child that he will "burn in hell" unless he converts to Christianity "oversteps the line between Church & State" (and also happened once)
Requiring non-believers to swear oaths that they do not believe in "oversteps the line between Church & State".
A Public School teacher criticizing a parent in front of their child for not letting them see "A Charlie Brown Christmas" "oversteps the line between Church & State". I would even go so far as to say that letting some students harass another student (for whatever motive) violates the rights of both the child & the parent ,(but that applies irrespective of whether religion is involved). Taking a child to a church--so long as there is no effort to indoctrinate the child--does not. I myself went on such field trips as a child & I while I was briefly concerned that they might try to proselytize to me, they didn't. Contrary to the beliefs of this Freethinker group there are perfectly valid logistical reasons for taking a child to a church,exactly as the church members have explained.
That is the churches lone the schools the use of their facilities.
When you are dealing with a private school these matters do not come up. It is only when dealing with public schools,which are owned in common by everyone in general & by no one in particular,that these bizarre clashes arise.
I wish to be clear,state run schools are potentially very dangerous because they can be easily turned into government indoctrination centers. We see this with efforts to promote or condemn certain beliefs or ideas;in sex education schools alternate between "tolerance" of homosexuality & condom promotion on the one hand & abstinence only education on the other,in science we see it in the battles over Evolution & Global Warming,& in social studies we see it both with Pro-Obama & Pro-Romney teachers. All this,in my mind,is as good a reason as any to get the government out of the school business altogether. Tax credits,controlled by the parents,would be a good first step.
But in this particular case I must ask:what is the end game here? There are countless works of literature from a Christmas Carol to Dante's Inferno to The Brothers Karamazov to Camille which could be said to "promote religion" add to that those books which could be said to "attack religion" such as Moby Dick,& Candide,& Inherit the Wind & Huckleberry Finn & the child would emerge from school as a cultural illiterate!
Yes,we must guard against efforts to indoctrinate children(whether in religion or secularism) ,but we cannot expect to cleanse the curriculum of anything anyone finds offensive,(particularly if people have the opportunity to opt out). The behavior of this group is even more irksome to me since there are real & legitimate concerns about public schools becoming tools for indoctrination by one group or another,& these silly cases only serve to "cry wolf" & distract us from more serious cases. Footnotes:
fn1
Voluntary personal prayer by students,does not in my view violate religious liberty,so long as it is not used as some indirect method of indoctrination by the school,& so long as the dissenting students are protected against harassment by the religious students. I recall hearing of one case where the students openly insulted & tormented a Jewish student for being Jewish. Such behavior should not be tolerated irrespective of who does it or why. The school is a place where students are supposed to learn,not a place to be bullied.
But it is hardly "bullying" for a one student,(or more),to say a private prayer to himself (or themselves )before eating. Indeed,some Jewish students do so.
A group of atheists in Arkansas--the Arkansas Society of Freethinkers--apparently having little else to do with themselves (since of course,they could not spend their time more productively criticizing Isalmists) ,have taken a bold & courageous stance,against ..."A Charlie Brown Christmas" .
Atheists cry foul over 'A Charlie Brown Christmas' | The Daily Caller http://dailycaller.com/2012/11/21/atheists-cry-foul-over-a-charlie-brown-christmas
...."The trouble began when students at Terry Elementary
School brought home letters detailing the trip to see “A
Charlie Brown Christmas” [RRD:a live version of the movie in play form ] at a local church, according to a report from Arkansas’ KARK. A parent who had a problem with the play’s content notified the local atheist group of the field trip.
“We’re not saying anything bad about Charlie Brown,”
Anne Orsi, vice president of the ,told KARK. “The problem is that it’s got religious content and it’s being performed in a religious venue and that doesn’t just blur the line between church and state, it oversteps it entirely.”
....."While students can opt out, the parent whistle blower who
preferred to remain unnamed told KARK that she is letting
her child go because she does not want her child to be
bullied. "... RRD: State sponsored prayer "oversteps the line between Church & State". (fn1) Taking a Jewish child to a church to have him baptized without his parent's consent "oversteps the line between Church & State" (& actually happened once,I believe) . A Public School teacher screaming at a Jewish child that he will "burn in hell" unless he converts to Christianity "oversteps the line between Church & State" (and also happened once)
Requiring non-believers to swear oaths that they do not believe in "oversteps the line between Church & State".
A Public School teacher criticizing a parent in front of their child for not letting them see "A Charlie Brown Christmas" "oversteps the line between Church & State". I would even go so far as to say that letting some students harass another student (for whatever motive) violates the rights of both the child & the parent ,(but that applies irrespective of whether religion is involved). Taking a child to a church--so long as there is no effort to indoctrinate the child--does not. I myself went on such field trips as a child & I while I was briefly concerned that they might try to proselytize to me, they didn't. Contrary to the beliefs of this Freethinker group there are perfectly valid logistical reasons for taking a child to a church,exactly as the church members have explained.
That is the churches lone the schools the use of their facilities.
When you are dealing with a private school these matters do not come up. It is only when dealing with public schools,which are owned in common by everyone in general & by no one in particular,that these bizarre clashes arise.
I wish to be clear,state run schools are potentially very dangerous because they can be easily turned into government indoctrination centers. We see this with efforts to promote or condemn certain beliefs or ideas;in sex education schools alternate between "tolerance" of homosexuality & condom promotion on the one hand & abstinence only education on the other,in science we see it in the battles over Evolution & Global Warming,& in social studies we see it both with Pro-Obama & Pro-Romney teachers. All this,in my mind,is as good a reason as any to get the government out of the school business altogether. Tax credits,controlled by the parents,would be a good first step.
But in this particular case I must ask:what is the end game here? There are countless works of literature from a Christmas Carol to Dante's Inferno to The Brothers Karamazov to Camille which could be said to "promote religion" add to that those books which could be said to "attack religion" such as Moby Dick,& Candide,& Inherit the Wind & Huckleberry Finn & the child would emerge from school as a cultural illiterate!
Yes,we must guard against efforts to indoctrinate children(whether in religion or secularism) ,but we cannot expect to cleanse the curriculum of anything anyone finds offensive,(particularly if people have the opportunity to opt out). The behavior of this group is even more irksome to me since there are real & legitimate concerns about public schools becoming tools for indoctrination by one group or another,& these silly cases only serve to "cry wolf" & distract us from more serious cases. Footnotes:
fn1
Voluntary personal prayer by students,does not in my view violate religious liberty,so long as it is not used as some indirect method of indoctrination by the school,& so long as the dissenting students are protected against harassment by the religious students. I recall hearing of one case where the students openly insulted & tormented a Jewish student for being Jewish. Such behavior should not be tolerated irrespective of who does it or why. The school is a place where students are supposed to learn,not a place to be bullied.
But it is hardly "bullying" for a one student,(or more),to say a private prayer to himself (or themselves )before eating. Indeed,some Jewish students do so.
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